# Ferrite rod or core permeability determination

Is there a simple empiric way of determining the permeability (mhu) of a ferrite object (be it a ring, rod or any form)?

I've been thinking this for a rod: if I wind coils with different number of turns (same wire, just wind or unwind it) and measure the inductance, then given the number of turns, diameter of the rod and "height" of the coil I would be able to determine the permeability. I tried a couple of times but I'm getting inconsistent results. My LCR meter can measure only upwards of 0,01mH (or 10uH). Is the meter the culprit or is my method flawed?

you're on the right track to measure/calculate effective permeability.

However, you need to use an inductance meter that can measure up to 1 nH accurately or so. If you're trying to use one of those $25 LCR meters , it won't have the accuracy or precision you require, plus you won't be able to zero it. Another issue is that you'll have a wide variance in results due to the wire, winding, lengths, etc - see Silvio's comments at http://www.sklaic.info/forum/index.php?topic=175.0 . The other method is to measure frequency resonance, by using the loop as the inductor in an LC circuit. Put a known capacitor in series with the loop, and then use a frequency generator and frequency counter to measure the resonance (peak) frequency of the LC circuit. • the resonance method pretty certainly is what those LCR meters do ;) Commented Aug 1, 2017 at 21:16 • Weeeell you got me :). I'm using a 20€ (Europe yay!) meter that doubles up as transistor and capacitor tester. Nice all around kit but the accuracy is what it is. Therefore I didn't expect to get super good measurements but at least a ballpark. I will give a try to the resonance method; I read about it but never tried. – Luca Commented Aug 2, 2017 at 10:35 Following up on @dfannin's excellent answer: The most intuitive way of dealing with this would be: 1. wrap your ferrite rod in halfway stable paper or so, something that certainly doesn't have high$\mu_r$(gut feeling: baking paper is nice as it is very "slippery" on flat surfaces) 2. make as many turns as you want around that; you're building a coil now, with the ferrite core. 3. Measure ferrite core coil's inductance by one way or another 4. carefully slip the core out of the paper. Now you have exactly the same coil, but with an air core 5. repeat measurement 6. since air has$\mu_r\approx1$, the ratio between the ferrite core inductivity value and the air core inductivity value is the$\mu_r$of the core. Downsides: • Since ferrite's$\mu_r$is going to be impressively high, you'll need a measurement method that can span easily 3 orders of magnitude • high-inductivity coil (which would allow measurements with your >1 mH LCR meter) might mean that even at relatively benign currents, you might be saturating the core and get it to nonlinearity (that's not all that likely, but don't rule it out before knowing how much power your meter uses) • might waste a lot of copper :) Things that can generally go wrong: • core saturates • core too small for coil, not (nearly enough) all field gets concentrated into core, so that measurement isn't proportional to core's$\mu\$
• ohmic losses make measurement hard
• Good idea. I'd also add that the permeability and loss tangent can be frequency dependent, so without knowing what frequency the LCR meter is using, it may not be accurate to translate the results to some other frequency. Commented Aug 1, 2017 at 21:36
• Nice idea with the ferrite/air swap but for that I will need a new meter :)
– Luca
Commented Aug 2, 2017 at 10:33
• don't know – what is the maximum value - to - minimum - value relationship on that meter that you have now? Commented Aug 2, 2017 at 14:10

Because ferrites aren’t marked, it is difficult to know what frequencies they work on. However, now we can use the popular NanoVNA along with free software (and Excel) to graph the unknown ferrite’s impedance over frequency.

YouTube video by Fair-Rite Corporation, using a Nano VNA and software: https://youtu.be/KmKQibSDzqM