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I know this sounds dangerous and crazy, but those microwave transceivers like the IC-905 are expensive. So, I was wondering if I could make a microwave transceiver with a microwave. You can buy 1200-watt microwaves for under $300. The 1200 watts is the RF output, right? Or is it the wattage going into the microwave? If I opened up the microwave and take out the magnetron, could I use it as a radio? I made a schematic below. I know this won't work, but does this contain the basics?

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

Would the relay break if it's switched on and off very quickly? If I add a transistor to it, the transistor might break under the high voltages. Is there another component I can use? According to my research, the IC-905's output power is only 10 watts, so would 1200 watts be too much? Google says the microwave oven operates at 2.45GHz. Would that interfere with WiFi? I didn't get any useful results on if hams can operate on 2.45GHz, but I'm guessing not. Can I change the frequency of the magnetron so it operates on, say 10GHz?


People are saying that microwaves will damage devices and humans nearby. But, if someone drilled a hole in their microwave door and run it, wouldn't it have bad consequences? Or if somebody bought a cheap microwave from eBay that has a leaky body, wouldn't the devices break? I'm pretty sure this stuff occasionally happen. I think if devices aren't in the same room as the microwave, they would function normally, and if humans aren't directly in front of the hole in the door, they won't feel any heat.
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    $\begingroup$ Please be aware that microwave ovens are very powerful and dangerous devices. They contain components that can easily kill you even if the oven has been unplugged for days. Always exercise extreme caution, and treat them with respect if you are knowledgeable enough to safely disassemble one of them. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 7 at 7:37
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    $\begingroup$ "With a microwave' - you mean 'with a microwave oven'. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 7 at 13:55
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    $\begingroup$ "I'm planning to kill myself through my own ignorance. Is this a good way to go about it?" $\endgroup$
    – Valorum
    Commented Dec 8 at 11:41
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    $\begingroup$ Just to mention in passing that all microwave ovens come with about half a dozen security switches to make sure the magnetron never works without the case completely closed and the door shut. That many because it has to be safe even if one latch fails. Or two fail. Or three... Does this remotely answer your original question as to what happens if you remove the magnetron and run it exposed? You might not be in the position to come back for a second question to this site any more. $\endgroup$
    – Gábor
    Commented Dec 8 at 17:31
  • $\begingroup$ @Gábor What do you mean I can't come back to post another question? $\endgroup$
    – John Doe
    Commented Dec 9 at 16:45

3 Answers 3

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The 1200 watts is the RF output, right?

Typically, it's the High Voltage transformer's input, but the RF conversion in microwave ovens is relatively efficient, which you can see by the fact that they don't burst into flames very often.

If I opened up the microwave and take out the magnetron, could I use it as a radio?

You need a magnetron, the excitation electronics, and then something to actually modulate the output of the magnetron with information. Additionally, you'll need output power and frequency stabilization that domestic microwave ovens don't need.

Magnetrons are, if you will, just a RF cavity resonator that can be "pumped" with external high voltage. They need to be operated in a continuous mode, at relatively constant power.

That means that your method of getting some information on the generated RF needs to deal with the high-power signal as is.

Therein lies the technical challenge!

When you just switch your magnetron on and off, you'd get terrible spurs due to the process of getting your non-radar magnetron up to power. You'd need to account for that by more high-power RF switching and filtering, which is where you quickly cross into "more expensive than a good microwave amplifier".

Generally, you can't switch a relay with a microphone. A relay can be switched a few times per second, and will wear out after a couple million switchings, whereas audio has more than "on/off" information, and also crosses zero a couple thousand times per second. So, nope, this is architecturally not possible at all.

According to my research, the IC-905's output power is only 10 watts, so would 1200 watts be too much?

If you want to fry birds in-flight, it would be appropriate. I don't know any communication signal standard that would use microwave frequencies and require that much power from an amplifier.

I didn't get any useful results on if hams can operate on 2.45GHz, but I'm guessing not.

You've got the KC3WCR call sign, and that means you're in the US; and as you know, legal bands are subject to local legislation! So yes, you can (that is extremely simple to research!).

Can I change the frequency of the magnetron so it operates on, say 10GHz?

No. The range of resonant frequencies is defined by the shape of the magnetron.

Also, 10 W is very significant output power; I'm not quite sure what your motivation is going for 1200 W? You would literally damage a lot of devices in your vicinity, you would probably cause bodily harm to yourself, and you seem to be vastly underestimating the cost and complexity of even transporting 2.4 GHz, let alone 10 GHz, at these high powers for any significant distance.

Note that it makes little sense to say "I want high power, but I only want to transmit voice". What would you need high power for? Free Space Path Loss at microwave frequencies means you're not doing far links, anyways: Adding a factor of 10× in power is very expensive, but only means a minor range increase. The high bandwidths you can use in the microwave bands mean that you can take your voice information, and spread it in bandwidth as needed, so that you can work at low spectral density. "More power == more good" is a falsehood that's sadly very common in the ham hobby, but in reality, systems need to be designed for transmitters to use as little output power as possible – otherwise, you just end up in a screaming match where everyone in range tries to scream louder than all the others, leading to overall worse performance than if everyone was using only little power.

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    $\begingroup$ I'd upvote this twice or more if I could. A kilowatt-class microwave transmitter is a weapon, not a communicator. Or a kitchen appliance, of course... $\endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    Commented Dec 6 at 16:01
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    $\begingroup$ @ZeissIkon to be fair, there's satellite uplinks, and a lot of radars, that have high power microwave outputs. It's just not easy to build these devices, and hard to build them communication-grade, and very hard to build them communication-grade and safe for the human next to them. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 16:02
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    $\begingroup$ Yep. And you probably don't want your body in the beam for any of those high power antennas. Sure, a kilowatt over your whole body is a lot less immediate issue than the same in a one cubic foot oven cavity, but I don't want to melt the chocolate bars in my pocket... $\endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    Commented Dec 6 at 18:24
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    $\begingroup$ Thanks for the detailed answer. I had the same idea 25 years ago, after much web-searching I found that people had found ways to lock a magnetron to an external signal, so its frequency could be modulated. Not likely useful with a common microwave oven though, it produces a 50 MHz wide mess of tones. $\endgroup$
    – tomnexus
    Commented Dec 6 at 19:27
  • $\begingroup$ @tomnexus very helpful if you want to build an FMCW radar, though $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 19:47
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There are several problems with magnetrons for communication system. Just a few to start with, the frequency is very unstable. That is actually an advantage when used to heat food, because the hot spots are diffused due to frequency drift. Also, the output power is unstable. The reason why microwave oven can't adjust the output power very well is because the pulse width modulation to control the heat output needs to be very slow, like 10 seconds or longer. Even then the power is unstable. So, one could theoretically think of very slow Morse code like a half word per minute with very bad QRH so that the receiver constantly needs to track the transmission frequency. That is no fun.

HOWEVER, there are new generation solid-state microwave ovens. Those use LDMOS RF power transistor. Those components may become useful for amateur radio in the near future.

Here's an example of 350W LDMOS transistor for 900MHz ISM band.

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/MHT1002N.pdf

Addendum / response to your additional questions

Microwave ovens have safety mechanisms by the door switch. The RF power is cut off when the door opens. However, there is a brief period of time when significant RF power can leak through the narrow door gap when an operator opens the door but before the power is completely cut off. This is a well-known RF exposure and cause of RFI. It is always best to stop the oven on the panel control and then open the door.

Holes on the RF shields on the chassis/door cause much more significant leakage of the RF power than in the above scenario, and I would not operate such a defective oven.

Even with a microwave oven with completely intact shields, the leakage is significant enough that many Bluetooth devices drop the connection or lose data packets, especially early generation products. Things became better, but that is because of the improvement in the Bluetooth chips, not reduced RF leakage.

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  • $\begingroup$ note that if you do low speed morse, there's no need for high power – correlation gain could get you out of the noise floor at very low TX powers, as you can integrate power over a long time per dit or dah.(and of course, you wouldn't do Morse on microwave frequencies, but a sensible digital modulation with proper source coding, defined framing and useful spectral properties, anyways. There's nobody on 2.4 GHz who would want to Morse – considering you get dozens of MHz of bandwidth, attaching a paddle just isn't very interesting) $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 20:34
  • $\begingroup$ With the QRH as bad as magnetron, how are you going to do coherent detection to benefit from the correlation gain? Mechanisms like Costas loop would not be good enough. One could use a wideband receiver and recover the carrier frequency, phase and amplitude jointly but that comes with a lot of other problems due to the dirty and congested nature of 2.4GHz band. Also, CW in microwave is pretty common. When people aim to establish a DX record, CW is always considered when SSB fails. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 20:44
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    $\begingroup$ exactly, instead of a low-stability high-power magnetron, you'd use a low-power high-stability emitter like any 2$ RF IC that can output a CW tone. I'd argue that if you need to establish a DX record, you'd do a DSSS system $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 20:49
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    $\begingroup$ The phase noise spectra of magnetron is very dirty so coherent detection is probably no good to begin with. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 20:50
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    $\begingroup$ Yup I am familiar with the concept. I studied Proakis Digital Communication among other materials. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6 at 21:25
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While I do imagine how to make a transmitter out of a microwave magnetron (it will be rather bad transmitter, but 60-120WPM CW could be possible, even voice if one manages to modulate the 4kV anode voltage)...

I cannot build any idea of a receiver made out of a microwave magnetron.

You need both a receiver and a transmitter in order to have a tranceiver, don't you?


Other than this, as far as I can remember (I am not a telecom regulations expert at any rate), in the band in question one is allowed to transmit ~100mW at most.

Transmitting 4 orders of magnitude more power may not be immediately harmful to someone at few meters of distance (but see below), but will immediately disable any wifi device, any bluetooth device, any CCTV that uses the band and other, seemingly unrelated devices in 100-1000m radius, depending on the terrain.


It will also (in most jurisdictions) attract a great deal of attention from the local comms regulator and an impressive fine is quite a possibility.


I remember a phrase from a short story I read some time ago:

When you hear the phrase "radar trauma", the first thing you imagine is the rotating antenna of a radar hitting your head. Still unpleasant, but not the real thing. There is a radar-induced disorder - you lose sleep, weigth, etc... but you can live with that. You cannot live with a severe radar trauma.

(sorry, I don't remember the title or the author)

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